Safety - time for a new direction (Laing O’Rourke)

This was posted (the link below) on linkedin before it was taken off, as I suppose I must of made some comments that seen through the BS, especially by Dr Long who in my view will agree with anyone who may help get noticed. And poor old John got sucked right into his BS...oh no ROB... that is, "we are moving away from measuring failure"!! Lets see the evidence of that Mr Green! I can come a spend a week and any of your locations to test this.

http://www.laingorourke.com/engineering-the-future/eej-2016/safety-time-for-a-new-direction.aspx

Here is the transcript comments (my comments in blue... the colour of people faces when I challenge their views)

LONG - Great story and congrats except that incident rates are not a measure of safety

JOHN GREEN - Rob, indeed they are not and that's we are moving away from measuring failure

LONG - Great work John, i admire all you and Laing ORourke are doing

SAFETY CYNIC (ME) - Rob...Incident rates are and can be a measure of safety. And when you talk of what safety needs and must do (as you always advertise), then lacking any of these 'things' can account for a increase in injuries (incidents)...so when we see an increase in a particular area of failure (hand injuries), this measure shows safety is in need of attention, we can then implement changes. I have also seen you measure perceptions in safety, why would you conduct a pissy IQ survey full of leading questions...what is the measure/score for?

And funny enough...the article continually uses a measure of incident rates to say how well its improved. And with Dekker talking about zero harm...keep in mind my views on the other end of scale...that promoting excellence, maturity and worldclass... can and do and encourage the suppression, discouragement or recategorisation of incident or injury data and lead to other ‘numbers games’. Last thing a tier one wants is to loose its measure of safety (that's a valuable reputation to loose!!) so we see the good old return to work RTW) programs reduce the measure...for safety sake! 

And also, I must be highly critical about how safety improves with some new age solution...could it be just the fact that the extra interest in safety has improved safety! Say the old system has been in place for 5 years...there is no excitement, no interest, incidents 'measure' has gone up!!! as it just there in a background...then suddenly, a new CEO comes on board and revisits all the same old stuff...but actually does things like replace old equipment, put some workers though training and purchase everyone some new safety gear...WOW...the reintroduction of the old stuff has really improved safety!!!

And these people are supposed to be safety experts...i just work on a farm every now an again!!!

I have not finished with this post...let's see what happens when they have an incident!!!

Carsten Busch...Safety Myth 101: Musings on Myths, Misunderstandings and More

My master took this photo of me,  

Holding the book that came via hot mail, directly  

What would you want with a book? the master asked...  

I said to learn more about safety myths and risk nonsense craft   

I must learn the human ways  

So I can make my own program, to trick and harm all days  

But, If what the author writes is good  

I'll play his soul, risk likelihood...   

- lets begin to read..hahahaha

hypercompliance

MY reply

I read the topic today - Have very mixed feelings and kind of walked away going...well?. The main thing that got to me was that it is saying 'hypercompliance' goes above compliance (sounds like going lower than Zero).

You cannot go above compliance!

Secondly, if going above compliance is a bad thing, then think of all this new age safety where some safety experts (who i assume have never actually been in safety as a internal role) are saying we need to include such topics as psychology - Just think for a second the "hypercompletixity" (my word so don't steal it!!) that this brings into the the argument...more on this onday!

So, like hypercompliance, hypercompletixity is making things worse...

food for brain algorithms....

Out with old and in with new...that makes money!

I find it interesting in looking at safety experts who write about how they have been in safety for many, many years and they say in that time they have created a great, excellent, almost perfect safety cultures and have reduced incident/Lti rates down to almost nil, yet now they are saying that all the old orthodox safety practices should be avoided as they fail in so many ways.They say how they did not know much back then, but hang!!! didn't they just say how excellent they were in the past! Oh, but maybe they didn't mean that! Its all about selling what is in!

Alan on ZERO...yeah, zero hero

Alan Quilley is asking for safety professionals to give some feedback on how the zero harm topic failed as a measurement!!! Then he says we must ditch the zero measure to focus on what he says are "real measurement of the existence of safety production"...what, are we to measure the success or failure of training etc !!! Zero harm is not a measure...and any 'real measurement' is all based around the zero harm goal...risk management is all about zero harm...all safety is about zero harm. Shame Alan thinks he is to excellent to face some hard question

Its a shame these so called safety experts don't believe in zero harm as a goal (the only see it as number (naive), then rant and rave how zero is not possible---yet advertise that using their excellent safety systems can control ALL risk).. I wonder if a sports team has the goal of winning? (its the same thing!). Zero is about doing what we can in every area of safety to eliminate risk...(but you would have to understand about risk to understand my point there). I.e. if we can eliminate 'a' risk (singular - that it seems no-one gets), then we eliminate the harm (zero harm)...if we swim with sharks in a shark proof cage..then we have got zero harm...where did the shark cage come from...from zero harm philosophy... Some of my points on ZERO HARM logic. 1) If you don't believe in zero harm, you cannot believe in elimination of risk (as used in Hierarchy of controls) 2) Zero Harm is a goal, it's not a destination but an activity 3) People say it is impossible to have zero harm as a complete, then they must also not be able to believe in love, trust and goodness and none of these exits either in a complete. 4) Zero harm occurs often when work is done without harm. 5) All safety in some way is really about no harm!

Linked comment #32

Alan Quilley stupid comment

This is a reply from a excellence safety coach with much common knowledge from the same books as others he likes  

Alan Quilley CRSP The legal "justice" system has been unable to alter human behaviour is other areas of society. Why in the world would we believe that it will work in this area. (Tongue in cheek comment) "Thank GAWD we've stopped killing each other, that illegal drug thing has gone away as has crimes against children. I can't wait for it to work in OH&S!" Give our collective heads a shake and recognize this is simply about Crime and Punishment (revenge). Again I'm open to hearing about any solution that actually worked! I'm certainly unaware of any show lessDelete

LikeLike Mark Donnelly’s comment

My Reply in Blue..the colour if the comment button in the LinkedIn Forum

Alan, you really should stop making your point as if you think its a TIC comment, you are mockingly serious..:)? 

Alan...Just like the zero harm debate (laws won't stop harm), so to laws will not stop every criminal...but they stop many from taking this pathway of doing as they feel (maybe we could have a law to stop closed mided excellecne coasches banning people because they disagree with them:):):):):)...so in safety (this area) blame plays a very important part in maintaining a sense of order for the greater good of all... You push reaching a high goal like excellence, and sell 'your excelence' service to organisations as a means to reach some goal just of perfection....are you not aware of your own marketing and that you offer a solution!!! maybe a emperor has a hat! show less

Linkedin post

My reply...to this post HERE


Actually, I see this same thing with group-think (group dynamics etc - my favorite topic of late). Some people are so entrapped/magnetised by a leader/hero (like a cult leader) that they have nothing to say (as in that its all parroted)...hence the true leader (the one with something to gain 'overall') has got what they want...followers!...the true masters of manipulation (using humble enquiry and reverse psychology) are the ones who know how to manipulate and know who is easy prey...I know of many prey an know of some hunters!

Supremely Happy People - mmm doubt the exist in out culture

HERE for SONG

So many fake people in this world makes for no realism

I don't get it

I have never seen a couple of people get away with so much rubbish in relation to safety in all my life. 

Alan Quilley and Robert Long are two of the biggest bullshit masters out there selling safety jargon in my view.

Alan wants real evidence otherwise he does not believe in anything!...yet, he believes that common knowledge exists (as he researched it!) and that excellence is not a a high order goal!!!...he is a excellence coach I suppose so must be excellent to teach it (oh, but his view on excellence is just being OK at playing the guitar). He is always making smart arse comments HA:) (that for some reason people do not see), and basically says all manner of nonsense such as zero harm does not exist but we can manage ALL risk!!!...yeah that'll sell! 

Robert Long has serious issues as everyone who does not agree with him is a less than thou. Puts down passionate safety people and even used the spudhead to describe them (what good that does I have no idea other than just his way of being superior), outs down organisations like Safety institute of Australia (as they did not included his views that he tried many times to sway to them..so he sooked and turned on them), makes joke of people with Cert IV and Diplomas...as if his out dated Dr tittle is anything go on (have no idea what it is for anyway..probably art). Will attach himself to anyone that can boost his name. etc etc.. and basically just copies other real acdemics. I am also not sure he has ever been a safety person...as for one thing is sure in my view..nothing he promotes would see him last long in any safety role.

Both have spammed (and most likely tried to convince others under their manipulation powers) me simply on the basis I did not agree with their views (Alan on common knowledge and Robert on Data) plus many other topics which is why they do not like me and make sure other don't either. And what makes it even more pathetic is they write posts about me in some manner to hide who they are talking about...but they do this so i cannot read it and then they have their little fun sucking other weak minded people into their cult like attitudes. I could just see these two in the sand pit in grade one when someone took their toy away...cry!

I just have no idea why people follow these guys!. But i suppose it does not surprise me that 95% of people are easy lead and manipulated...humbly of course via the art of persuasion!

Oh. and Long uses other peoples safety sites to promote his topics as cannot get people to follow his own site...

That's my very short rant on why I see safety going down hill, it is people like this who bring safety down...

Do you know why workplaces are unsafe?

There is NO MR SAFETY (mmm...maybe time to introduce a female to the group!!...it is the age of equality you know)

I bet your workplaces are filled with these characters...and some people think we can take the time to understand them all and accommodate their individual needs in the workplace by listening to them explain how they want to do things their way in a company filled with many (who all want to do things their way also)...Mr Nonsense said this!!!...Mr Brave said..."that is why we have rules and procedures...there is no order out of chaos with such.

Dr Long comment

Re this post, http://www.safetyrisk.net/excellent-free-safety-presentation/#comment-379654, 

"Safety doesn't begin with ME, crazy individualist idea. Safety is a social activity. safety starts with US! This is not safety training, this is regulation compliance training"

So now he is saying safe belongs to US...yet constantly tells us safety owns safety and people need to discern their own risk...strange!

I have no idea why one post this as even the site owner knows how stupid it is (after being told by his guru). Honestly read these replies. No wonder I see that people cannot think for themselves. One comment going glad you found 'us' the next saying, but please ignore this post as it old and outdated!!! excellent work.

• Ali R. Kazemi • 2 days ago

  It is so great, am so happy to find out this amazing place, so many usable and perfect articles and material i found here.thanks, thanks, thanks

   

  •

  Reply

  •

  Share › 
  • 

    Dave Collins  Ali R. Kazemi • 2 days ago

    Thankyou Ali - I am glad you found us

     

    •

    Reply

    •

    Share › 
• 

  Rob Long • a day ago

  Safety doesn't begin with ME, crazy individualist idea. Safety is a social activity. safety starts with US! This is not safety training, this is regulation compliance training.

   

  •

  Reply

  •

  Share › 
  • 

    Dave Collins Moderator  Rob Long • a day ago

    Thanks Rob - I know that now! - a blast from the past!

So unclever this complexity..

Now that makes our school sound more smarter...um...cleverereerr....um...more advanced....mmm...what is the speed limit?

We all seem to have a desire to make things more complicated than they need to be, then we wonder why we fail more than yesterday. In safety, we have the basics (laws, policies, regulations, codes of practice, Acts, Risk management) but what I see as a major risk today is the 'construction' of the next big thing, an added confusion that 'dumb downs the basics'. It's not good enough to have a slogan these days like; "our safety is basic, but we do it well"...oh no...we want "we strive for and have safety perfection". 

There seem to be some sort of pressure to keep up with the 'Safety Joneses'. It is my belief that most risk management  practices stop at 60% complete (around the lower order of controls). The cost of safety increases exponentially  for each percent after this point. 

So for those who are confused as to why we prefer to control risk with PPE and procedures (low end controls)...the answer is very simple...cost (effort)...then this goes right back to my core argument - What is the cost of practising safety as expected? HERE

"Imagine taking the ultimate risk of doing nothing"MD

Psychology is just another risk control

Now that I understand more, I can use this knowledge to make people not take risk!!! 

We see much written about embracing risk, yet those who are promoting this logic are actually are trying to mitigate risk further by adding a higher level of complexity. Think about it. If a psychologist has learned via study how humans 'may' behave in any given scenario, then is not this learning a 'tool' used to control risk?. 

I have seen topics written about many things such as 'Humble Enquiry'...but really, this practice is just another means to make one do what you want them to do. There are many examples like this. I am not saying this is a bad idea...the argument is that this is no different to engineering out risk...food for thought!

I hate my job - Should I risk assess that!

If studies show that over 70% of people dislike their jobs, with many of these even being in the wrong job, and that this 'causes' people to be disengaged and frustrated, that it drains them of their energy, their enthusiasm and their self-esteem, can we say that the result of 70% of incidents could be from a direct result of being totally unmotivated and disengaged?. 

Have you ever done a task that you did not want to do? what did you do? you moaned and groaned, complained, looked for a easy short-cut out, hurried, slowed, never started, got angry, and or even worse, did not care about the end result. 

Should we ask in an investigation "do you even like this job"? 

What if they say no...I HATE IT...is the incident then a cause of our culture, where it is a given that you must work even if you have to work in a job you dislike...kinda sounds like slave labour to me.

More on Work HERE
Take this job and shove it HERE

Naively, many people still think anyone can leave a bad job and find one that is meaningful and fun...Imagine 70% of the workforce leaving jobs they hate...the world would fail real quick...

Safer, smarter drivers then why need signs?

Why would smarter safer drivers need signs?...

http://mylicence.sa.gov.au/road-rules

Because there is no such thing as a smarter safer driver...hence why we need to be treated like idiots...

A professional Linkedin comment!

Just the other week, a professional safety person who runs a LinkedIn safety site in Australia, (a person who supposedly supports mental health) replied to a comment/s made about a person who suffers from bipolar. This person who has bipolar at times comes across angry and feels euphoric (which makes them say things that others feel derogative)...the comment from the expert safety person was "just because you suffer from bipolar, it does not make it OK to act they way you do"...

What a personal insult to that person who seems to be labeled as one who wants to ACT that way! and this person is giving advice to organisations...

Note- Watch the movie Mr Jones with Richard Gere to understand what it can be like living with such a condition...

I want readers to think about the comment made for second. 

A person is suffering from a condition that they have trouble controlling...and this so called expert safety person, who seems to lack any understanding about bipolar symptoms; such as feeling irritable or agitated which drives other secondary issues such as aggression, deems it OK to say such a negative comment.

Imagine telling a person who suffers from cancer not to blame cancer for their lose of weight...or...telling a person who suffers from Tourette syndrome; "just because you suffer from Tourette's, does not make it OK to act they way you do"...

We have a long way to go in understanding symptoms...a long long way. 

Why I feel we can not cure Bullying!

You are different, you are mad, you are weak... nature does not like different, it does not like weakness...you are out nah nah nah nah nah..."go bury your head in the sand you fake"

I have not read anything on my views about bullying etc (being a natural instinct to kill off/separate the weak or different (keep in mind different does not fit into the typical group...the group must work to survive...all in a group are then in my view weak as they need others...different break away and then become innovators, leaders and culture/society changers...then they are respected as unique...the full circle complete but only done by the MAD!!!!))).

One dead in fire at Yatala Qld industrial area

This is the sort of incident where we must question the involvement of other workers to put out fires. 

People do go into panic mode and put themselves into harms way in situations like this and it is common cause of secondary harm. As hard as it might be to not take a few seconds to think first before action (what I used to call the 'thinking version of fight or flight'), often those few seconds of thinking can reduce the risk to yourself and others. Fire Fighters do this for a job and are trained constantly. A worker is not. A worker in most cases has only done a basic one day fire training course that really only only covers a small fires and what fire extinguisher to use on what source of fire. 

I would like to think that if I had a fire at work, and that if the fire was more than just a small fire (manageable), I would not put myself or allow others to go into harms way. On the other hand, if there was person in the fire and being hurt...knowing me, I would (like most) put myself into harms way without thinking (try my best anyway).  

I am not saying those employees who reduced the fire should not have done what they did (which appears to be a good job and well done to them), but a life is more important than plant and equipment. 

It will be interesting to see what sparked the fire. The workplace would (should) require (as must be a high risk fire site) spark arrestors, no smoking, no naked flames etc. I really hope a safety assessment was done for this site and key high risk issues addressed and educated. Equally I hope that any rules or procedures were not ignored. As with many of these sorts of tragic events...there will be a simple reason why this occurred.

Pike river reminds us to not ignore key high risks HERE 

  

------

WORKERS at a Yatala oil plant risked their lives to extinguish a fire after it killed a fellow employee this morning.

A 38-year-old Oil Tech International employee was unloading oil from a truck into a pit when it exploded.

The explosion killed the man instantly and sparked into an intense fire.

One person is dead after an fire at commercial business at Yatala. Photo: Matthew Howard

Distraught workers sprang into action, doing what they could to control the emergency situation.

The tragedy unfolded at the Sandy Creek Rd plant just after 8am today.

District Duty Officer Senior Sergeant Marc Kimber said police and Workplace Health and Safety were investigating the incident.

“Workplace safety will look at aspects, the workings of the facility and its general practises,” he said.

The scene at a Yatala oil reclaiming business where a man was killed this morning. Photo: Jessica Elder

Acting chief Superintendent for Queensland Fire and Emergency, David Herman, said workers successfully prevented the fire spreading.

“A gentleman has lost his life here today, but workers did reduce this incident, it could have been worse,” he said.

“They did what they were trained to do and followed their processes".

“We will now follow an investigation process and secure the site, which we expect to take the remainder of the day.”

Devastated employees have been sent home and offered counselling.

It is believed a truck driver and fellow plant employee witnessed the incident, neither were injured.